https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&feed=atom&action=historyTalk:Imperative Rework - Revision history2024-03-28T22:02:51ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.34.1https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=11271&oldid=prevKevan: /* the addition to Fair Play */ new section2020-08-24T10:23:05Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">the addition to Fair Play: </span> new section</span></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''"A Pathfinder is required to carry out this Action but has some flexibility over when and in what order should be carried out, within reason."'' - this is pretty vague. Is it a placeholder? I didn't see any problem with the v2 approach of making ''shall'' and ''must'' synonyms. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:34, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''"A Pathfinder is required to carry out this Action but has some flexibility over when and in what order should be carried out, within reason."'' - this is pretty vague. Is it a placeholder? I didn't see any problem with the v2 approach of making ''shall'' and ''must'' synonyms. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:34, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It's really vague. I'm torn between trying to define all of the cases carefully and leaving it open enough to be interpreted through use. As discussed in the thread I think that there is a need for a more general-use midground between may and must (a lot of derrick's objections can be resolved this way, as well as a few of my own reservations, and the list of cases that you posted in your comment [https://blognomic.com/archive/imperator_rex_appendix_core_special_case#comments here - timestamp 11:46:24]). [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 20:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It's really vague. I'm torn between trying to define all of the cases carefully and leaving it open enough to be interpreted through use. As discussed in the thread I think that there is a need for a more general-use midground between may and must (a lot of derrick's objections can be resolved this way, as well as a few of my own reservations, and the list of cases that you posted in your comment [https://blognomic.com/archive/imperator_rex_appendix_core_special_case#comments here - timestamp 11:46:24]). [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 20:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== the addition to Fair Play ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I'm concerned about forbidding this delay, especially when it is waiting on a time-sensitive action by someone else, such as a proposal/cfj passing, or an ally undertaking an action. Perhaps reserve this for tasks that say "must immediately" {{unsigned|Derrickthewhite}}</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Kevanhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=11269&oldid=prevKevan: /* The v3 "must" */2020-08-23T20:48:05Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">The v3 "must"</span></span></p>
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</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l59" >Line 59:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A must-locked player being denied all core actions seems too far, though - it's dangerous if players are ever blocked from voting on CfJs or DoVs, and bad for the game if must-locked admins and mentors can no longer perform their duties. Limiting a must-lock to dynastic actions and declaring victory seems like it'd be enough. (A block on declaring victory is maybe fair for situations where there's an action chain of "player gets 100 points but must then do something which is unintentionally impossible", where the victory condition is 100 points - performing half of that chain should not result in victory. Although I guess there are variations like "generate 100 points for someone else and then do something impossible", where my accomplice would win even though I became must-locked.) --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A must-locked player being denied all core actions seems too far, though - it's dangerous if players are ever blocked from voting on CfJs or DoVs, and bad for the game if must-locked admins and mentors can no longer perform their duties. Limiting a must-lock to dynastic actions and declaring victory seems like it'd be enough. (A block on declaring victory is maybe fair for situations where there's an action chain of "player gets 100 points but must then do something which is unintentionally impossible", where the victory condition is 100 points - performing half of that chain should not result in victory. Although I guess there are variations like "generate 100 points for someone else and then do something impossible", where my accomplice would win even though I became must-locked.) --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I've made a change along that line. How do you feel about players being able to idle themselves? [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 20:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I've made a change along that line. How do you feel about players being able to idle themselves? [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 20:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::Probably okay, I think, for players who are stuck in a situation where they'd rather forfeit the game than continue. Doesn't seem that big a deal when they also have the option of just walking away from the game and idling out a week later. If someone tactically idles to avoid a "must", then the remaining players will, as usual, sort it out for them, probably to that player's detriment. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 20:48, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== The v3 "shall" ==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== The v3 "shall" ==</div></td></tr>
</table>Kevanhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=11268&oldid=prevJosh at 20:27, 23 August 20202020-08-23T20:27:22Z<p></p>
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</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l58" >Line 58:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A must-locked player being denied all core actions seems too far, though - it's dangerous if players are ever blocked from voting on CfJs or DoVs, and bad for the game if must-locked admins and mentors can no longer perform their duties. Limiting a must-lock to dynastic actions and declaring victory seems like it'd be enough. (A block on declaring victory is maybe fair for situations where there's an action chain of "player gets 100 points but must then do something which is unintentionally impossible", where the victory condition is 100 points - performing half of that chain should not result in victory. Although I guess there are variations like "generate 100 points for someone else and then do something impossible", where my accomplice would win even though I became must-locked.) --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A must-locked player being denied all core actions seems too far, though - it's dangerous if players are ever blocked from voting on CfJs or DoVs, and bad for the game if must-locked admins and mentors can no longer perform their duties. Limiting a must-lock to dynastic actions and declaring victory seems like it'd be enough. (A block on declaring victory is maybe fair for situations where there's an action chain of "player gets 100 points but must then do something which is unintentionally impossible", where the victory condition is 100 points - performing half of that chain should not result in victory. Although I guess there are variations like "generate 100 points for someone else and then do something impossible", where my accomplice would win even though I became must-locked.) --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:I've made a change along that line. How do you feel about players being able to idle themselves? [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 20:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== The v3 "shall" ==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== The v3 "shall" ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''"A Pathfinder is required to carry out this Action but has some flexibility over when and in what order should be carried out, within reason."'' - this is pretty vague. Is it a placeholder? I didn't see any problem with the v2 approach of making ''shall'' and ''must'' synonyms. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:34, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''"A Pathfinder is required to carry out this Action but has some flexibility over when and in what order should be carried out, within reason."'' - this is pretty vague. Is it a placeholder? I didn't see any problem with the v2 approach of making ''shall'' and ''must'' synonyms. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:34, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:It's really vague. I'm torn between trying to define all of the cases carefully and leaving it open enough to be interpreted through use. As discussed in the thread I think that there is a need for a more general-use midground between may and must (a lot of derrick's objections can be resolved this way, as well as a few of my own reservations, and the list of cases that you posted in your comment [https://blognomic.com/archive/imperator_rex_appendix_core_special_case#comments here - timestamp 11:46:24]). [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 20:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Joshhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=11253&oldid=prevKevan at 10:34, 23 August 20202020-08-23T10:34:55Z<p></p>
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</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l53" >Line 53:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::I assume reality of that situation will depend on who you play with, because there is hardly any precedent system to decide these kind of things here, just the sum of our individual views. And I, well, stated mine. No intent to speak for others. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 21:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::I assume reality of that situation will depend on who you play with, because there is hardly any precedent system to decide these kind of things here, just the sum of our individual views. And I, well, stated mine. No intent to speak for others. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 21:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== The <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">new </del>"must" ==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== The <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">v3 </ins>"must" ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>"chronological order of the requirement arising" is a good call.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">''</ins>"chronological order of the requirement arising"<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">'' </ins>is a good call.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A must-locked player being denied all core actions seems too far, though - it's dangerous if players are ever blocked from voting on CfJs or DoVs, and bad for the game if must-locked admins and mentors can no longer perform their duties. Limiting a must-lock to dynastic actions and declaring victory seems like it'd be enough. (A block on declaring victory is maybe fair for situations where there's an action chain of "player gets 100 points but must then do something which is unintentionally impossible", where the victory condition is 100 points - performing half of that chain should not result in victory. Although I guess there are variations like "generate 100 points for someone else and then do something impossible", where my accomplice would win even though I became must-locked.) --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A must-locked player being denied all core actions seems too far, though - it's dangerous if players are ever blocked from voting on CfJs or DoVs, and bad for the game if must-locked admins and mentors can no longer perform their duties. Limiting a must-lock to dynastic actions and declaring victory seems like it'd be enough. (A block on declaring victory is maybe fair for situations where there's an action chain of "player gets 100 points but must then do something which is unintentionally impossible", where the victory condition is 100 points - performing half of that chain should not result in victory. Although I guess there are variations like "generate 100 points for someone else and then do something impossible", where my accomplice would win even though I became must-locked.) --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== The v3 "shall" ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''"A Pathfinder is required to carry out this Action but has some flexibility over when and in what order should be carried out, within reason."'' - this is pretty vague. Is it a placeholder? I didn't see any problem with the v2 approach of making ''shall'' and ''must'' synonyms. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:34, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Kevanhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=11252&oldid=prevKevan: /* The new "must" */ new section2020-08-23T10:31:18Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">The new "must": </span> new section</span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 10:31, 23 August 2020</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l52" >Line 52:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::BlogNomic doesn't have a comprehensive framework for dealing with situations in which the rules contain a false statement, but I think we generally consider it as flavour text rather than as creating some sort of legal fiction. (The legal-fiction concept, whilst used heavily in some nomics, is pretty alien to BlogNomic.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 18:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::BlogNomic doesn't have a comprehensive framework for dealing with situations in which the rules contain a false statement, but I think we generally consider it as flavour text rather than as creating some sort of legal fiction. (The legal-fiction concept, whilst used heavily in some nomics, is pretty alien to BlogNomic.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 18:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::I assume reality of that situation will depend on who you play with, because there is hardly any precedent system to decide these kind of things here, just the sum of our individual views. And I, well, stated mine. No intent to speak for others. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 21:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::I assume reality of that situation will depend on who you play with, because there is hardly any precedent system to decide these kind of things here, just the sum of our individual views. And I, well, stated mine. No intent to speak for others. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 21:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== The new "must" ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"chronological order of the requirement arising" is a good call.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A must-locked player being denied all core actions seems too far, though - it's dangerous if players are ever blocked from voting on CfJs or DoVs, and bad for the game if must-locked admins and mentors can no longer perform their duties. Limiting a must-lock to dynastic actions and declaring victory seems like it'd be enough. (A block on declaring victory is maybe fair for situations where there's an action chain of "player gets 100 points but must then do something which is unintentionally impossible", where the victory condition is 100 points - performing half of that chain should not result in victory. Although I guess there are variations like "generate 100 points for someone else and then do something impossible", where my accomplice would win even though I became must-locked.) --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 10:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Kevanhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=11232&oldid=prevKevan: /* May */ split out implication issue into its own section, follow up on may-as-permission2020-08-22T08:48:28Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">May: </span> split out implication issue into its own section, follow up on may-as-permission</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 08:48, 22 August 2020</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l4" >Line 4:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This kind of problem seems hard to avoid without going down Agora's strict capslock legalese "a player MAY" route, which feels like an unnecessary gear change for BlogNomic, and one that might diminish the Nomic ecosystem. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 14:17, 15 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This kind of problem seems hard to avoid without going down Agora's strict capslock legalese "a player MAY" route, which feels like an unnecessary gear change for BlogNomic, and one that might diminish the Nomic ecosystem. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 14:17, 15 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I agree, no interest at all in making it too aggressively legalistic. [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 14:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I agree, no interest at all in making it too aggressively legalistic. [[User:Josh|Josh]] ([[User talk:Josh|talk]]) 14:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::It does feel like this rework should catch the wider issue of imperatives which ''aren't'' clearly expressed as "the player must do the thing". As well as using other terms like "shall" or "will", rules often have some variant on "when this happens...", requiring that when one action occurs, a variable gets updated. It always bothers me that the ruleset doesn't address how to handle this. It feels like it breaks down into three situations:-</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">::</del>* ''"A Spy may Shout at any time. A Spy may Surprise another Spy at any time, causing them to Shout. When a Spy Shouts, their Stealth becomes zero."'' - implying that if you choose to Shout, you're meant to update your own Stealth; if you cause someone else to, you update theirs. But in both cases it feels like a half-completed action is valid, and it's okay for an unrelated player to step in and say "hey, you forgot to reduce the Stealth" and apply the change.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Limiting the scope of imperatives to "actions" looks like it fixes this, but maybe the problem is there as much as it was in 2018. If we have a rule of <i>"A player may be unhappy."</i>, intended to be read as "being unhappy is gamestate" (with other rules that make you unhappy), can someone still plausibly argue that no, it's giving permission to take the decision of "having the state of being unhappy" and - despite a rule telling them to become unhappy - they are choosing not to possess that state. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 08:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">::</del>* ''"A Spy may gain 1 Intel as a daily action. For each Intel gained by a Spy, 1 Intel is removed from their choice of Embassy."'' - again implicit that the actioning player is meant to do the update, but in this case a second player can't finish the action for them, because they don't know what choice would be made. Here, a half-completed action feels invalid - if I return the next day and say "oh yeah, I meant Bolivia" and go ahead with my next action, that's unfair on other players who've had to react to incomplete information in the mean time.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">::</del>* ''"Every Monday at 2pm, every Spy loses 1 Intel."'' - the expectation is that the gamestate updates itself silently and anyone can manually update it afterwards. (Although this is poor rule-writing.)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">==Implied imperatives==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">::</del>Maybe there's some useful mileage in defining some of these cases and how to react to them (''"if an event is said to occur as a result of an action, the player who performed the action must also apply the effects of the event; if they fail to do so, then..."''), so that variations on may (''"a player may be hungry"'' vs ''"a player may eat cake"'') and must (''"a hungry player must eat"'' vs ''"cake must be eaten within three days of purchase"'') are interpreted as plain English rather than requiring players to always use the correct legal terms, and be alert for unintuitive scams that rely on them. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 16:43, 20 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>It does feel like this rework should catch the wider issue of imperatives which ''aren't'' clearly expressed as "the player must do the thing". As well as using other terms like "shall" or "will", rules often have some variant on "when this happens...", requiring that when one action occurs, a variable gets updated. It always bothers me that the ruleset doesn't address how to handle this. It feels like it breaks down into three situations:-</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''"A Spy may Shout at any time. A Spy may Surprise another Spy at any time, causing them to Shout. When a Spy Shouts, their Stealth becomes zero."'' - implying that if you choose to Shout, you're meant to update your own Stealth; if you cause someone else to, you update theirs. But in both cases it feels like a half-completed action is valid, and it's okay for an unrelated player to step in and say "hey, you forgot to reduce the Stealth" and apply the change.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''"A Spy may gain 1 Intel as a daily action. For each Intel gained by a Spy, 1 Intel is removed from their choice of Embassy."'' - again implicit that the actioning player is meant to do the update, but in this case a second player can't finish the action for them, because they don't know what choice would be made. Here, a half-completed action feels invalid - if I return the next day and say "oh yeah, I meant Bolivia" and go ahead with my next action, that's unfair on other players who've had to react to incomplete information in the mean time.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''"Every Monday at 2pm, every Spy loses 1 Intel."'' - the expectation is that the gamestate updates itself silently and anyone can manually update it afterwards. (Although this is poor rule-writing.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Maybe there's some useful mileage in defining some of these cases and how to react to them (''"if an event is said to occur as a result of an action, the player who performed the action must also apply the effects of the event; if they fail to do so, then..."''), so that variations on may (''"a player may be hungry"'' vs ''"a player may eat cake"'') and must (''"a hungry player must eat"'' vs ''"cake must be eaten within three days of purchase"'') are interpreted as plain English rather than requiring players to always use the correct legal terms, and be alert for unintuitive scams that rely on them. --[[User:Kevan|Kevan]] ([[User talk:Kevan|talk]]) 16:43, 20 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Shoulds and musts ==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Shoulds and musts ==</div></td></tr>
</table>Kevanhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=10000&oldid=prevCuddlebeam at 21:44, 22 May 20202020-05-22T21:44:53Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZGiqWIhw94 But anyways, for the record I don't think that such a scam would be possible, because of the ancient "The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset.", so you can't just do something illegal to change the rules in the first place, even if you could toy with the Ruleset-Gamestate directly. Yes, it's a bit weird, but it's what the rules say. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 13:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZGiqWIhw94 But anyways, for the record I don't think that such a scam would be possible, because of the ancient "The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset.", so you can't just do something illegal to change the rules in the first place, even if you could toy with the Ruleset-Gamestate directly. Yes, it's a bit weird, but it's what the rules say. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 13:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::BlogNomic doesn't have a comprehensive framework for dealing with situations in which the rules contain a false statement, but I think we generally consider it as flavour text rather than as creating some sort of legal fiction. (The legal-fiction concept, whilst used heavily in some nomics, is pretty alien to BlogNomic.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 18:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::BlogNomic doesn't have a comprehensive framework for dealing with situations in which the rules contain a false statement, but I think we generally consider it as flavour text rather than as creating some sort of legal fiction. (The legal-fiction concept, whilst used heavily in some nomics, is pretty alien to BlogNomic.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 18:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::I assume reality of that situation will depend on who you play with, because there is hardly any precedent system to decide these kind of things here, just the sum of our individual views. And I, well, stated mine. No intent to speak for others. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 21:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Cuddlebeamhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=9997&oldid=prevAis523: /* Representations of the Gamestate */ I don't think BlogNomic has legal fictions2020-05-22T18:33:02Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Representations of the Gamestate: </span> I don't think BlogNomic has legal fictions</span></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::(Historical note: Kevan covertly fixed the scam using the same CfJ that was used to fix the "everybody is idle" issue we just had, so that dicatorship scam is no longer available.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 13:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::(Historical note: Kevan covertly fixed the scam using the same CfJ that was used to fix the "everybody is idle" issue we just had, so that dicatorship scam is no longer available.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 13:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZGiqWIhw94 But anyways, for the record I don't think that such a scam would be possible, because of the ancient "The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset.", so you can't just do something illegal to change the rules in the first place, even if you could toy with the Ruleset-Gamestate directly. Yes, it's a bit weird, but it's what the rules say. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 13:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZGiqWIhw94 But anyways, for the record I don't think that such a scam would be possible, because of the ancient "The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset.", so you can't just do something illegal to change the rules in the first place, even if you could toy with the Ruleset-Gamestate directly. Yes, it's a bit weird, but it's what the rules say. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 13:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::BlogNomic doesn't have a comprehensive framework for dealing with situations in which the rules contain a false statement, but I think we generally consider it as flavour text rather than as creating some sort of legal fiction. (The legal-fiction concept, whilst used heavily in some nomics, is pretty alien to BlogNomic.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 18:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Ais523https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=9994&oldid=prevCuddlebeam: haha that's me2020-05-22T13:12:19Z<p>haha that's me</p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:As a side note, there is one case in the current rules in which this isn't the case – the gamestate-tracking device is the gamestate directly rather than merely reflecting it – which leads to a trivial core-rules scam to gain a dictatorship. Doing so involves intentionally performing an action that is illegal (or at least not explicitly legal), would be massively unpopular and contrary to the spirit of BlogNomic, and would almost certainly lead players ignoring the whole thing and banning the perpetrator, and so I have no intention of trying. It might be worth fixing, though given the likely huge consequences for someone who attempted it, it's probable that we'd decide that it isn't actually a problem. If Cuddlebeam were around, I'd be more concerned. [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 22:16, 19 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:As a side note, there is one case in the current rules in which this isn't the case – the gamestate-tracking device is the gamestate directly rather than merely reflecting it – which leads to a trivial core-rules scam to gain a dictatorship. Doing so involves intentionally performing an action that is illegal (or at least not explicitly legal), would be massively unpopular and contrary to the spirit of BlogNomic, and would almost certainly lead players ignoring the whole thing and banning the perpetrator, and so I have no intention of trying. It might be worth fixing, though given the likely huge consequences for someone who attempted it, it's probable that we'd decide that it isn't actually a problem. If Cuddlebeam were around, I'd be more concerned. [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 22:16, 19 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::(Historical note: Kevan covertly fixed the scam using the same CfJ that was used to fix the "everybody is idle" issue we just had, so that dicatorship scam is no longer available.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 13:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::(Historical note: Kevan covertly fixed the scam using the same CfJ that was used to fix the "everybody is idle" issue we just had, so that dicatorship scam is no longer available.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 13:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZGiqWIhw94 But anyways, for the record I don't think that such a scam would be possible, because of the ancient "The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset.", so you can't just do something illegal to change the rules in the first place, even if you could toy with the Ruleset-Gamestate directly. Yes, it's a bit weird, but it's what the rules say. --[[User:Cuddlebeam|Cuddlebeam]] ([[User talk:Cuddlebeam|talk]]) 13:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Cuddlebeamhttps://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Talk:Imperative_Rework&diff=9987&oldid=prevAis523: /* Representations of the Gamestate */ a note to stop people looking for the scam, now that it isn't there any more2020-05-21T13:23:50Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Representations of the Gamestate: </span> a note to stop people looking for the scam, now that it isn't there any more</span></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is one of BlogNomic's main innovations/advantages compared to email nomics; it means that the records of the gamestate tend to update themselves, because updating the record is how you take the actions in the first place. So there's much less "admin load" than there is in the other nomics I've played in.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is one of BlogNomic's main innovations/advantages compared to email nomics; it means that the records of the gamestate tend to update themselves, because updating the record is how you take the actions in the first place. So there's much less "admin load" than there is in the other nomics I've played in.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:As a side note, there is one case in the current rules in which this isn't the case – the gamestate-tracking device is the gamestate directly rather than merely reflecting it – which leads to a trivial core-rules scam to gain a dictatorship. Doing so involves intentionally performing an action that is illegal (or at least not explicitly legal), would be massively unpopular and contrary to the spirit of BlogNomic, and would almost certainly lead players ignoring the whole thing and banning the perpetrator, and so I have no intention of trying. It might be worth fixing, though given the likely huge consequences for someone who attempted it, it's probable that we'd decide that it isn't actually a problem. If Cuddlebeam were around, I'd be more concerned. [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 22:16, 19 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:As a side note, there is one case in the current rules in which this isn't the case – the gamestate-tracking device is the gamestate directly rather than merely reflecting it – which leads to a trivial core-rules scam to gain a dictatorship. Doing so involves intentionally performing an action that is illegal (or at least not explicitly legal), would be massively unpopular and contrary to the spirit of BlogNomic, and would almost certainly lead players ignoring the whole thing and banning the perpetrator, and so I have no intention of trying. It might be worth fixing, though given the likely huge consequences for someone who attempted it, it's probable that we'd decide that it isn't actually a problem. If Cuddlebeam were around, I'd be more concerned. [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 22:16, 19 May 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::(Historical note: Kevan covertly fixed the scam using the same CfJ that was used to fix the "everybody is idle" issue we just had, so that dicatorship scam is no longer available.) [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) 13:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Ais523