The First Dynasty of ais523
May 14, 2009 - June 25, 2009
Welcome to Reality
- Host, to audience
- Welcome to the first episode of Reality TV, the latest grand-prize TV show by Mortis Maximis, the company that brought you smash hit films like Body Count. As you can see, our contestants arrived not long ago, and have all been locked in an underground bunker, where we will watch what they do over the next few days. Or weeks. Or even months, who knows?
- I’ll explain the rules later, but for now, look at our brilliant zoomy cameras [rather jerky camera work], we can look all around this place. Everything in this entire complex is under surveillance. As a reality TV first, we even have endoscopic cameras to look inside the contestant’s bodies [blank screen], yes that’s a reality TV first ladies and gentlemen. Expect more surprises like this, right here on Reality TV!
[Cut to rather inappropriately flourescent title sequence.]
- Host, to cameraman
- So, just because my character was killed in Body Count, I don’t get to work on the sequel, but am instead stuck here on this awful reality TV show that got set up at the last minute just because the CEO thought it was a good idea.
- But everyone loved you! You’re a famous actor, you can become a famous presenter too!
- Yes, but can I become a famous gameshow designer? I’m stuck here, in this underground bunker in an undisclosed location (why oh why could the prop guys not at least tell me where it was?), with nobody else here but the cameraman, well and the contestants of course. And no rules! How on earth am I expected to run a gameshow without knowing the rules? I know I’m meant to make them up as I go along, but this really shouldn’t be my job alone. I mean, I have no ideas; do you?
- Apparently not, but as it’s just me and you, we’ll have to think of something. Hmm, well, there is another possibility...
- We could always ask the contestants...
And so, the host, rapidly in search for a solution that would let him try to maintain the impression of control over an entire game show whilst getting basically no help from the parent company, rapidly grabbed a set of rules off the Internet that allowed for contestants in a game to modify the rules, whilst still giving the Host some power and veto rights over any attempt to escape; and let the contestants in on his plan to try to run a gameshow without anyone cottoning on to the fact that it everyone was effectively a plant. Or maybe not; after all, they were still competing with each other. A smile spread across his face as he realised that this could be very interesting indeed...
Repeal all Dynastic Rules except 2.14 (as it really has nothing to do with any particular dynasty). Rename “Scripter” to “Contestant” and “Producer” to “Host”. Welcome to the Reality TV Dynasty!
The following players were active at the beginning of the Dynasty:
ais523, arthexis*, Bucky*, Darknight*, Darth Cliche*, Delta, Devenger*, Influenza, Josh*, Kevan*, Oze*, Psychotipath, Quazie, Qwazukee, Rodlen*, TAE, tuxhedoh, Wakukee
The following players were active at the end of the Dynasty:
ais523, arthexis*, Clucky*, comex, Darknight*, Darth Cliche*, Neil, Psychotipath, Qwazukee*, Rodlen*, Wakukee*, Wooble, yuri_dragon_17
Posts of Interest
- http://blognomic.com/archive/voting_out/ created Voting, Insiders, and Outsiders.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/the_social_side/ created Support.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/your_new_home/ created rooms.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/the_fame_game/ created Fame.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/rewards/ created Rewards.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/the_prize_fund/ created the Prize Fund.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/back_by_internal_riot/ allowed a Quorum of Insiders to bring an Outsider back into the bunker.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/the_crowd_are_getting_impatient/ Allowed Contestants to change the Votes of other, more apathetic Contestents (Misvoters) to keep things moving. While the original function was obsoleted by Voting Events, it was heavily abused during the midgame.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/in_the_green_room/ allowed Contestants to Pick Fruit.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/confrontation/ created Confrontations.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/say_that_to_my_muscles/ created Looks and allowed Contestants to exercise.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenges/ created Challenges.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/luck/ created Luck and allowed Contestants to Go Fish and Press My Luck.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_a_game_of_chicken/ was the 1st Challenge.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/voting_events_proposal_version/ created Voting Events.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/deep_sleep/ allowed Contestants to Sleep.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_reverse_auction/ was the 2nd Challenge.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/idle_tactics/ made some major changes to the Voting Rules.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_poetry_contest/ was the 3rd Challenge.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/eat_eat/ allowed Contestants to Cook.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/how_to_win_this_dynasty/ created 2 victory conditions; winning by "consensus" and "default." Also created Coups.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/my_looks_are_so_edgy/ altered the Voting mechanic in an interesting way.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_double_zero1/ was the 4th Challenge (aborted).
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_how_i_wish_i_could_memorize_pi/ was the 5th Challenge.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/back_with_the_old/ created Hats.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/outsiders_finding_their_way_back_in/ created a new way for Outsiders to become Insiders.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/some_people_have_all_the_luck/ allowed Contestants to Get Lucky.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/high_stakes_challenges/ created Immunity and Extreme Challenges.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_extreme_risk_your_insidership/ was the 6th Challenge (Extreme). It was the source of much controversy over the time notated "00:00:00."
- http://blognomic.com/archive/blognomican_hat_dance/ created Hat Dances and Fiesta!
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_resolving_the_ambiguity/ was the 7th Challenge.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/telling_time_101/ defined the extent of a day for the purposes of Blognomic.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/final_showdown/ created the Final Showdown.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/scrub_a_dub_dub/ created Bathing.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_removing_immunity/ was the 8th Challenge.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/challenge_extreme_disaster_in_the_bunker/ was the 9th and final Challenge (Extreme).
- http://blognomic.com/archive/why_bother/ was a Proposal to let yuri win which was passing until yuri won a different way.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/declaration_of_victory19/ was a DoV by Qwazukee that failed 3-5.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/drowned_the_competition/ was yuri's DoV.
- http://blognomic.com/archive/making_the_ruleset_neat/ reaorganized the Ruleser (passed after the Dynasty was over). Here's the prior Ruleset: Ruleset 65
As seen from a non-player (Amnistar):
During the course of the game alliances were formed, as if the nature of a reality TV show, however because of the politics of the situation actions in-game spilled over and became animosity out of game. During the course of the game two major groups were formed, one around the DDA and the other around Bucky.
At the end of the game, Qwaz attempted to win through a technicality, prompting questions about whether an action could be taken if it would set someone's values that were non-numeric to illegal, but was voted down. Yuri was declared winner by proposal, and then proceeded to ignore the proposal and legally win the game with the help of two other players, Clucky and Darknight.
As described by Clucky:
The Dynasty saw a power struggle between the DDA and what was pejoratively called "Bucky's Alliance." (despite the fact that there really was no organization on Bucky's side of things people voted similarly and there was a perceived group) Both groups worked to vote out the members of the other group. Heading into the final Challenge, most of "Bucky's Alliance" had decided it wasn't any fun being political and Bucky himself left. Qwazukee and yuri_dragon_17 had far better statistics than any other Contestants. Qwazukee abused a technicality in the final challenge to get rid of Clucky (despite Yuri and himself both also suffering due to the same technicality). Clucky pointed this out, and then instead of further bickering, decided to try and let Yuri win by a proposal. Qwazukee supported this, but then also tried to abuse illegal gamestate values and made a DoV that failed 5-3. Despite the proposal to let Yuri probably passing, Yuri managed to win via the Challenge without the Proposal. Using an idea from Clucky and Darknight, Yuri and Clucky got Darth Cliche to evacuated Darknight, comex and welcome Yuri back in. Yuri then evacuated Rodlen which gave him enough Support to win by consensus. Notably, the final solution circumnavigated the rivalries that had ruled the Dynasty; because everyone involved with the victory was sick of the fighting.
As described by Qwazukee:
The Dynasty saw a power struggle between the DDA and what was pejoratively called "Bucky's Alliance." Both groups worked to vote out the members of the other group. Heading into the final Challenge, Qwazukee and yuri_dragon_17 had far better statistics than any other Contestants. The final Challenge was supposed to be nonpartisan, but Clucky and Qwazukee couldn't stop sniping at each other, so it was on shaky ground. Qwazukee made a DoV that failed 5-3, which would later result in some tinkering around the Rules concerning illegal Gamestate values. A Proposal to let yuri win was passing, until Clucky Self-Killed it. yuri managed to win via the Challenge without the Proposal. Using an idea from Darknight and Clucky, Darth Cliche evacuated Darknight, comex, and Rodlen, welcoming yuri back in and giving him enough Support to win by consensus. The members of Blognomic saw his victory as a good compromise between the bickerings of Clucky and Qwazukee. Notably, the final solution circumnavigated the rivalries that had ruled the Dynasty; Darknight and Clucky (members of Bucky's Alliance) gave an idea to Darth Cliche (a member of the DDA) which allowed a Contestant supported by both factions to ascend, with the approval of most of the active Contestants.
As described by Ienpw III (formerly known as yuri_dragon_17) more than a year later
Bucky did indeed organize and control the aforementioned secret alliance. Midway through the dynasty, the DDA invited yuri to join. Yuri was under the impression that joining the DDA was a good thing, and he accepted. However, it soon became clear that the DDA had decided to oppose Bucky's Alliance. As the hostility grew, Yuri quit both groups and somehow ended up winning.
As seen by Host ais523
I think I must have been the only player in the entire nomic who completely didn't notice the factionalisation that had happened, until it was blatantly pointed out. Towards the end, there was a proposal forcing me to create a final challenge in order to end the dynasty, likely as a response to all the bad blood that was brewing, and I did so. Qwazukee tried a DoV that seemed dubious from my point of view, but I'd decided to stay well out of the rules squabbles that had a tendency to crop up all through my dynasties, and so didn't post on it. It failed on the basis that it relied interpreting an ambiguity in the core rules in a way that people generaly didn't agree with (the hole has since been patched). The challenge itself turned out to have an issue too; although the way it was worded was fine (trying to make it easier to update), a lot of people misread it, and a CFJ was needed to prevent them being disqualified by default, reversing the effects of the misreading. The mess was bad enough that a proposal was made to give the win to Ienpw III (this actually started before Qwazukee's attempted DoV); however, the Challenge itself still continued, and Ienpw III (= yuri_dragon_17) managed to win via the challenge itself. (Clucky self-killed the proposal in question by mistake before it could pass, although when it was already too late to matter.) The actual challenge win (which also caused a dynasty win; the Challenge was designed specifically to trigger an existing victory condition, although it ended up triggering a different victory condition slightly earlier) was uncontroversial when it happened, and worked something like this: Darth Cliche used his high Looks to drag people into rooms where they instantly had to be Evacuated, while Clucky and Qwazukee pumped in water outside to make rooms less safe, using this to engineer a situation where Ienpw III could first be invited back in, then manoeuvred around the house as necessary until he won. Clucky seems to have been behind the plot; I don't know whether Qwazukee's involvement was deliberate or not. (Darknight seems to have come up with the original idea.) I find it particularly hilarious that part of the win method indirectly involved drowning me...
We would seem to have hit the Slowdown, which is almost certainly due to the high amount of activity required to stay well-placed within this Dynasty. --Qwazukee 04:25, 1 Jun 2009 (GMT)
This Dynasty has become way more political than I think was intended. Note to future Dynasties: be careful not to let yourselves become too political, because bad blood can boil between even the best of friends when politics comes up. --Qwazukee 05:36, 12 Jun 2009 (GMT)
(@Amnistar) -- Actually, The proposal to make Yuri win was going to fail, and thus the legal win was needed. Darth Cliche also assisted in his win. -- Wakukee
- You're both wrong; it was self-killed by mistake. (I'm not sure how long it was before anyone noticed.) CallForJudgement
(@Clucky/Qwazukee) -- Anything that these two say about the dynasty should be taken with a grain of salt. Both have skewed viewpoints and disagree vehemently with the other. -- Wakukee
Addendum: I was, in fact, a member of an explicit alliance that got dismantled (intentionally or not) by a series of votes by Yuri (who was also a member). I'm still not sure whether it was an accident or an intentional (and effective) backstab. --Bucky 19:22, 29 Jul 2009 (GMT)
As described by Bucky:
I think I owe everyone a more thorough account of the early part of this dynasty. The alliance started between myself and Darknight, as a continuation of an arrangement from the Third Dynasty of Amnistar. As part of my preparation for the dynasty, I read up on the "Survivor" television show and concluded that (1) anyone not in a formal alliance was toast, and (2) once one alliance achieved dominance, the alliance's leader was by far the most likely member to win. My overall strategy for the dynasty was to approach relatively inexperienced and medium-commitment players, convince them to enter a formal, secret alliance by explaining point (1), and not invite anyone who would contest (2). (While this may sound selfish, it also cuts down on the drama). By the end of the first challenge, it had become clear that the dynasty would eventually boil down to us vs. the DDA. As a result, I recruited up to a couple of people larger than the DDA and stopped there.
Our core members early in the dyansty were myself, Darknight, Yuri_dragon_17 (aka Ienpw III), Influenza and delta. We had a bit of churn, but not much; our four core members stayed constant until I left. Notably, neither arthexis nor Clucky were included.
We also took some precautions to hide our alliance's existence as a formal entity, as well as its membership. We agreed not to mention the alliance to anyone outside of it, except as an invitation. The support graph mutated by various means in such a way that all Contestents indirectly supported me or Darknight - this took a bit of one-on-one negotiation to pull off. Also, several of the alliance-less Contestants were following our lead sometimes to divert attention from themselves. Furthermore, the later-joining members were supporting Yuri rather than Darknight or me. Our core membership could have been deduced from the second challenge - we covered all numbers from 0-8 except for 6 in a coordinated fashion (delta, who was assigned 6 and 9, failed to submit) - but I don't think anyone pieced that together during the dynasty.
For most of the midgame, the the DDA and our alliance simply picked off alliance-less Contestants to keep them from forming their own group. Eventually, they chose to pick a fight... and decided to target Clucky! Our stealth had paid off; their first target was outside the alliance and we had two chances and an extra vote to win the fight. I had previously circulated a contingency plan to attack Wakukee (of the DDA) if they threatened us, so that's what we did. We had the resources to win, but lost due to three factors; First, during the previous Voting Event-cycle, a couple of players had joined, set their GNDT stats to Support DDA members, and never taken another action. Second, the DDA was much more active than we were. The Misvoting rule allowed each of them to set the vote of one inactive Contestant 72 hours after the end of the previous voting event. They were all online at that time and claimed the suspicious new Contestants' votes. Finally, Yuri_dragon_17 voted for a different DDA member instead. The election was very close - any one of those factors falling differently would have knocked the DDA down to 3 voters and effectively broken them as a bloc.
A few days later, yuri_dragon_17 resigned from the alliance. I concluded that he must be selling us out to the DDA. I also began to suspect that the DDA was employing meatpuppets from outside the nomic. While I tried some recovery steps, such as enlisting Arthexis to stop the DDA, I realized that I was becoming too paranoid to reason effectively and went idle to preserve my mental health. (It should be noted that while Yuri really was talking to the DDA behind my back, I had no evidence of it except for the events mentioned here)-Bucky 06:30, 18 Mar 2012 (GMT)
Personal video recordings made by the contestants during the course of the game are archived at the Diary Entries page.
Written by Qwazukee. Ascension perceptions by Amnistar, Clucky, and Qwazukee.
Appendix: Notable Discussions
Here is the discussion on time, which played a major part in this dynasty. The Challenge being disputed can be found here.:
- 06-18-2009 00:00:00 UTC
- Roll: 1
- Guess: 5
- Wakukee: Oh, really? BE that way, nomic. BE that way. ... you gonna take that, ais? I shouldn’t have been playing that stupid flash game…
- Clucky: I’ll be cfjing if he takes it wak --don’t worry at least you passed due to the play it safe rule
- Wakukee: CFJ, if you must. We shall see. It says on Thursday, but not when. Besides… I’d call it a buzzer shot, what with the lag of the comuter and all.
- Qwazukee: A quote from Wikipedia:
- “Midnight marks the beginning and ending of each day in civil time throughout the world. It is the dividing point between one day and another.”
- Wikipedia also seems to treat Midnight as occurring on both days; read the article for more verification.
- http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/548775.html is a dispute where there is no clear answer as to which date midnight falls on; it is, by definition, a matter of opinion.
- http://www.astronomy.net/articles/13/ also takes an interesting view on the topic. Honestly, it can be interpreted either way, and whoever ais sides against will be justified in trying a CfJ.
- I can’t seem to find any other good sides, due to an overabundance of information about “Midnight Sun.”
- In my opinion, however, Midnight is on both Wednesday AND on Thursday. ais says, “Wednesday is the last day you can gamble on,” and under my interpretation and the interpretation that seems most prevalent among scholars, Wakukee’s post was on Wednesday (as well as Thursday). Thus, his Gamble should be accepted.
- Clucky: Not my fault your computer has lag. “Midnight” is the concept of the time from 23:59 to 0:00. To say something occurs ‘at midnight’ means it occurs then.
- Wak didn’t post at midnight, he posted at 0:00 which is clearly part of Thursday.
- I mean, the timestamp clearly says “06-18-2009”. How can you actually argue that the 18th is still Wednesday?
- Qwazukee: Your conceptualization is a bit off here, Clucky. Midnight is the exact moment of 00:00:00, not some abstract phantom. I think you will find that nearly all sources agree on this definition. Wakukee posted at 00:00:00, which is defined as midnight.
- The timestamp says “06-18” because the maker of ExpressEngine, which Blognomic runs off of, or whoever it was that made the clock didn’t feel like going to the trouble of programming it to read “06-17/18-2009” for the 1 second that this is an issue. It’s the same reason that clocks read “12 PM” at exactly noon, even though it is obvious that noon is not a PM time (PM stands for “Post Meridiem,” meaning “after noon").
- The fact that the person who programmed our timing mechanism was lazy has no bearing on the truth of the situation. The time Wakukee posted, “00:00:00,” occurs on both Wednesday and Thursday, and that must be taken into account for resolving this Challenge.
- Clucky: But either way I end up winning.
- The rules state that the contest ends on Thursday.
- If midnight is simply Thursday, I win.
- If midnight is both Wednesday *and* Thursday, then it is still Thursday and so the contest still ends and so I still win. Wednesday is the last day you can gamble, even if there is one minute of Wednesday that you can’t gamble on.
- I guess one could claim “The challenge ends on Thursday, there is just one minute of Thursday that its still running for” and we should probably wait for ais’s interpretation, though it might be best to just say we both win.
- Darknight: qwaz, midnight is the offical day turn over. I’d say that waks doesn’t count cause then you’d be adding a min to wens and that just cause a clusterf**k. and no this isn’t cause i support bucky. just stating my thoughts
- Plus, with you saying midnight = when wak posted then he posted on thursday, hence his gamble doesn’t count as it was posted on thursday, the day the contest ends.
- (re-reads qwazs post) Simple Q. Where in any book does it state that midnight means we’re sitting on two days at once? that logic makes no sense even for a nomic. My comp says that when midnight hits its offically the next day, not some magic duel day min.
- By that logic, he’d be in a paradox because he could both enter the contest as it’d be wens but at the same time not be able to since it would also be thurs. Qwaz, honestly, its not worth the trouble here.
- Qwazukee: If you read the 2 links, it will help illustrate my point, but I will try again.
- There isn’t one “minute” that is both days, there is one instant. For the purposes of the time we have access to, that amounts to one second. There is exactly one second (for our purposes, as our clock doesn’t get any more specific than that) that is both Wednesday and Thursday. That is the time Wakukee posted at.
- To respond to Clucky: my interpretation is pretty much exactly the same as your second statement, with the replacement of “minute” with “second.” In fact, ais gives a specific example showing that anytime Wednesday is legal for gambling: “on Wednesday after 12:00 UTC” are his exact words, and that includes Midnight.
- To respond to Darknight’s 1st comment, no amount of time is added to either day. There is simply one instant that is both days, and this has always been the case. This is a bit counterintuitive, but so is the fact that .99999… = 1. Just because something is counterintuitive doesn’t mean it is false.
- To respond to your second comment, the fact that it was also Thursday is immaterial; ais specifically said (as I showed in my last explanation) that any time Wednesday is a legal time to gamble. That includes Midnight.
- Continuing with Darknight’s third comment: I already posted two sites explaining that Midnight is on both days. I think you will find that many others agree with that interpretation, because it is correct. Let me provide an example, to show you how confusion might come about:
- Suppose you were invited to a party that started Midnight Thursday. Would you know when to show up at this party? Does it start just as Wednesday has come to an end? Or does it start right as Thursday comes to a close? It is not clear, and I suspect it would generate much confusion among those who were invited.
- To respond to Darknight’s 4th comment: nowhere does it say that one cannot Gamble on Thursday. It does, however, state that one can Gamble on Wednesday. The fact that the Challenge ends on Thursday does not mean that it one cannot also fulfill the obligations required to gamble legally, so long as one posts on Wednesday. Midnight counts as Wednesday (as well as Thursday), thus Wakukee’s post is legal and counts in the Challenge.
- Darknight: Whatever to all the time crap.
- Qwazukee: On a related note, I hope ais reads all these posts, they’re pretty interesting. If a nomic isn’t about arguing over minute nuances, then I don’t know what it is about.
- Clucky: Why isn’t that ‘second’ 23:59:59? The actual ‘instant’ occurs between the two.
- Its like this:
- 23:59:58 23:59:59 | 0:00:00 0:00:01
- “midnight” occurs at the line. We can zoom in if we want
- 23:59:59:998 23:59:59:999 | 0:00:00:000 | 0:00:00:001
- But the fact remains that anything that is “0” will be the next day and anything that is “23” will be the previous day. There is no time we can represent that corresponds to the instant that is midnight. 3.14 is not actually pi. Neither is 3.14159. Or anything we can write down. They are just approximations. 0:00:00 might be a good approximation of midnight, but it isn’t actually midnight.
- Qwazukee: It should look like this, Bucky:
- 23:59:59:998 23:59:59:999 | 0:00:00:001 0:00:00:002
- The line represents the exact time that is in-between both days; namely, midnight. The line can also be represented by a number of zeroes, how ever many you like: 0 = 00 = 000 = 0:00:00:000.
- As soon as a 1 appears, no matter how many digits down it is, the number now represents a time in the next day (Thursday). However, if there are only 0s, then the time represents Midnight.
- Idk why I said Bucky, I meant Clucky. Freudian slip.
- Clucky: Remember that Unix time is stored as seconds elapsed. This “rounds up” so to speak. If the time stamp says 23:59:59 we know that at least 85399 of the seconds 86000 seconds in a day have passed. If the time stamp reads 0:00:0 then all 86400 seconds have passed plus some fraction of a second.
- Thus we have intevrals that are closed on the left and open on the right. Time 0 corresponds to every time in between 0:00:00 January 1st 1970 and 0:00:01 January 1st 1970. It does *not* correspond to 0:00:01 January 1st 1970 as then one second has elapsed, and so that would be time 1. However, it does correspond to 0:00:00 January 1st 1970 for obvious reasons.
- Wak posted at Unix Time 1245283200. This corresponds to anything between 0:00:00 June 18th 2009 and 0:00:01 June 18th 2009, including 0:00:00 but not 0:00:01. Note that June 17th, Wednesday, is not included in this interval.
- The time ‘midnight’ where it is both does not actually exist. It is impossible for Wak to have posted exactly at that time. Instead, his post took place a few milliseconds after wards.
- Er, actually know that I think about it it rounds down. But whatever, I need sleep. If you haven’t conceded come morning I’ll get on a post another rebuttal.
- Qwazukee: All of which is sensible, intuitive, and true, except for one bit. The interval we are looking at is [0:00:00, 0:00:01).
- That left limit is exactly midnight, which does exist despite your continued, unsupported assertions to the contrary. The time that was posted included that left limit, meaning that it is feasible that Wakukee posted at Midnight, which occurs on both days. I think it would be entirely unfair to assume that it was posted somewhere near the right limit, as there is no proof of that. For all purposes, we are forced to assume that he posted at the left limit, aka Midnight.
- Clucky: No it is not feasible because the actual time is only an istant. Posting at exactly midnight is akin to random getting exactly ok when choosin a number between 1 and 10—the probability of it happening is zero. Same with the probability it was posted at exaclty midnight.
- Qwazukee: The probability is not 0. In your analogy, the probability would be like getting exactly pi when selecting a random number (not integer) from 1 to 10.
- In fact, the probability that he got the left limit is exactly the same as the probability that he got any other time within the range [0:00:00, 0:00:01). Once again, all we know is that it was within that range, so one would be unjustified in assuming that he did not post at Midnight exactly.
- Also, keep in mind that we’re dealing with an imperfect measurement here. Wakukee has assured me that he hit “submit” around 23:59:30. In that 30 seconds of time, anything at all could be going on in the Internet. Our style of measurement already assumes that Wakukee posted at a time that is 30 seconds later than the truth. Let’s not make any assumptions beyond that: therein lies the slippery slope towards saying that time itself is an abstract concept, and we should discard all Rules that have a time element because they are untenable.
- Clucky: I give up. If you cannot get your mind around the fact that midnight is an istant and there are an infinite number of instances during any finite time period, and thus the probability of posting at any given instance is 0 then there really isn’t anything I can do.
- Also your arguments keep getting sillier and sillier. We have no proof of wak’s actions other than the time stamp. It doesn’t matter when he wanted to do it—it matters when the server noted his responce. While his personal time may have had 30 seconds to spare we cannot have a clock for every player. We have one clock and expecting to play by anything else is crazy.
- Qwazukee: This is the critical point where I am right. There’s nothing wrong with my mind and, if you look really, really carefully, you’ll see that I understand how, as you phrase it, “instants” work.
- You’re second point is exactly why we must accept that Wak posted at midnight. All we have to go on is the word of what we see on the screen. The time of “0:00:00” is the only thing we have to go on; we have to accept that as the only time, because like you said, we don’t have personal clocks for every player.
- Thus, the only time we can go by is 0:00:00, which, in theory, is midnight. 0:00:00 is the exact notation for the moment of midnight. While you and me and Stephen Hawking or whoever all know that it represents a range of numbers, we cannot assume that because that’s not what is actually stated. What is explicitly stated is that Wakukee’s action occurred at 0:00:00, which is midnight.
- Since you are prepared to take the server at its word, can you accept my conclusion?
- Clucky: No. I won’t accept your conclusion. According to the server, it was at least midnight when Wak posted.
- It could not have been exactly midnight, because midnight is an instant. It is impossible to do anything exactly at midnight in the same way that it is impossible to actually write down pi.
- If we let A be “Wak posted at midnight” and B be “Wak posted after midnight” we know
- (A or B) is true, based on the server time and we know (not B) based on how instances work. The only way this works is if A is true and B is false.
- Er I meant not A is true and so B is true and A is false.
- ais523: This is such a mess, that the only solution I can think of is to arrange matters so that it comes to the same thing either way. I’m about to do that now.
- Clucky: How is it a mess? Qwaz doesn’t understand how time works and is displayed. Ignorance is no excuse for getting things to go your way.
- Wakukee: Personally, I believe your logic to be skew. The true options are not that it was posted at midnight or after, they are A) It was posted at the instant known as “midnight” or B) It was posted at an instant that occured after “midnight”. By your logic, since both options are instants, the post never occured. As this is clearly incorrect, we are forced to accept that we do not know whether A or B are true, it could be either.
- Clucky: /headdeak
- There isn’t only one ‘instant’ between 0:00:00 and 0:00:01. There is an infinite number of them. You posted during one of them.
- Wakukee: Which may or may not have been exactly midnight. Wee, full circle.
- Qwazukee: Wow, Wakukee managed to explain that better than I did. Nice work.
- Wakukee: Proposal: What are these timespans for, anyway?
- Add the following:
00:00 dd/mm/yy on any given day is considered to have occured on both dd/mm/yy and dd-1/mm/yy, due to the limitations of expression engine to display time. A daily action made on any given day at 00:00 cannot be made again until 24 hours later.
- to the end of rule 3.2 “Timespans”.
- There is no limit to the engine at displaying times. There is just a limit in some people’s understanding that 0:00:00 isn’t acutally midnight, but instead the period of time between 0:00:00 and 0:00:01.
- Wakukee: That OR midnight itself… you do not know which, and thus cannot conclude either way.
- Clucky: but from a probability standpoint, there is a zero percent chance of it being 0:00:00 and 100% of it not.
- Given those odds, I’d rather assume the more likely.
- Wakukee: But I’d rather follow the information we have, rather than make speculations.
- Clucky: Its funny because you are making the speculation that “it was posted at exactly midnight” instead of following the information “it was posted at at least midnight”
- Qwazukee: The information we have is that it was posted at “00:00,” whatever it is we are talking about. That time is midnight; at least, that’s what that notation means.
- You know, the other way is simpler and easier to adjudicate. Besides, who says that Blognomic doesn’t have the power to alter universal constants?
- Proposal: Fails 2-4.
- Clucky: Proposal: Telling time 101
- Add the following to the end of “Timespans”
Any duration reference to a given day (i.e. “Sunday” or “August 2nd"), unless otherwise stated, inclusivly begin at 0:00:00 GMT on the mentioned day and inclusivly end at 23:59:59 GMT on the same day.
- Wakukee: Also works.
- Qwazukee: And life will be easier.
- Proposal: Passes 7-0.
Later in that same post, Darth Cliche questioned whether a minute contains an infinite number of instants.
- Darth Cliche: Clucky, if you happen to read this: What is your definition of “instant”? I wouldn’t think there is an infinite number of instants in a minute; there is certainly a large amount, however.
- Qwazukee: There is an infinite amount, fyi, because you can divide a minute smaller and smaller; there is no limit to how many times you can divide it.
- Clucky: Wow Qwaz and I are agreeing and blognomic is still currently standing…
- Darth Cliche: @Qwaz: How can there be an infinite amount? I think I can prove that there isn't...
First, let us assume that an instant is a unit of time, which it clearly is.
Now, if there is an infinite number of instants in a second, then there must also be an infinite amount in any other length of time.
Therefore, a yoctosecond and a millennium are the same amount of time, each equal to an infinite amount of instants. A yoctosecond and a millennium are different amounts of time, therefore a second contains a finite number of instants.
- Qwazukee: You are assuming that all inifinities are equal, which is mathematically untenable.
Here’s a site talking about it:
And I am too lazy to find anything better, but multiple infinities do exist, obviously.
- Darth Cliche: “Obviously”??? How, in any sense of the word, is that obvious!?
- Qwazukee: Because what do you get if you subract 1 from infinity? The number is obviously still infinite, but is slightly less than the infinity you were talking about before. Thus, there must be multiple infinites.
- Darth Cliche: No, ∞ - ∞ = ∞. ∞ and ∞ are the same thing. There are only 2 infinities: ∞, and -∞ (negative infinity).
- Qwazukee: So what is ∞ - 1, then? Talk to ais, he is far more mathematically inclined than you or I and he will do a better job of proving this to be true.
- Darth Cliche: Hmm. It seems what you’re actually thinking of is the aleph numbers.
- Darth Cliche: Posted at the same time as Qwaz.
- Darth Cliche: @Qwaz: When I said ∞ - ∞ = ∞, I meant ∞ - 1 = ∞.
- Qwazukee: No, I think those have limited applicability here. Like I said, I’m no mathematician, but it is obvious that x-1 isn’t equal to x, and that holds true for infinity.
- Darth Cliche: Infinity isn’t a natural number. Things work very different for it.
- Clucky: The amount of fail in this thread just increased by a factor of of a joint concert between Nickelback Creed and Kanye West.
Consider the set of all (real) numbers between 0 and 1 and the set of all (real) numbers between 0 and 2. Note that both contain an infinite number of real numbers. Also, you are correct that there are different infinities. However, in this case, there they are the SAME infinity. Why? there are the same number of real numbers in both groups. Why? Consider the function f(x) = 2x. This takes any value in the first group and maps it to a value in the second group. Likewise, if we have y in the second group, then f(y/2) = y and so there cannot be more numbers in the second group than numbers in the first group.
“Instants” are like real numbers, and timeframes like “second” and “millennium” are ranges of an infinite number of seconds. They both contain the same infinite number of seconds, but this doesn’t make them the same length.
You both are embarrassing yourselves. Learn how infinity works before you make fools of yourself arguing about it.
- Qwazukee: Your words are very interesting but make little sense.
- Darth Cliche: Also, how would we know that there isn’t some smallest possible unit of time, and anything smaller does not exist in any form?
- Qwazukee: Because at this point, we define what time is? There is no meaning to the word other than that which we have given it, and the currently accepted conception of time has it divisible into an infinite number of parts….
- Darth Cliche: “Accepted” by who?
- Qwazukee: People who use time.
- Darth Cliche: I use time. I don’t accept it.
But now this has degenerated to bickering. Let’s just agree to disagree.
- Darth Cliche: I hate infinity.
- Qwazukee: Do you hate infinity… forever?
- Darth Cliche: Also, look up “Planck time” on Wikipedia.
- Qwazukee: Planck time seems to be a theory at best. I don’t think you can apply it here with any degree of confidence.